El
Goldman Sachs Global Investment Research 5
Issue 75
But markets aren’t always about extreme ups and downs;
there are bull markets and bear markets, rises and corrections.
With that in mind, I don’t believe that we’re in a bubble, and I
don’t think we’re going to have a crash. Stock P/E ratios are
pretty much in line with the postwar average. Banks are not
highly levered. Most investing hasn’t taken place in vehicles as
highly levered as the mortgage and loan vehicles of 2006-07.
And I don’t see an analog for subprime mortgages today. So in
many ways, the current environment is less precarious than 11
or 12 years ago. But for an investor, I think the next five years
simply aren’t going to be as good as the last ten.
I don’t believe that we’re in a bubble and
I don’t think we’re going to have a crash.”
Allison Nathan: What late-cycle excesses worry you the
most?
Howard Marks: I worry about the amount of debt in the
system and about companies’ exposure to rising interest rates.
I recently wrote about what I call “the seven worst words in
the world”: too much money chasing too few deals. Demand
for credit instruments in the last few years has been very
strong, driving an influx of capital to the leveraged loan and
private lending markets. Such large capital inflows tend to drive
up prices, drive down credit standards, drive up risk, and drive
down prospective returns. I believe that generally has
happened in the credit markets. So I worry about the debt load
more than I do about, say, a collapse in stock prices.
Allison Nathan: Are credit markets the most likely cause of
the next downturn?
Howard Marks: “Cause” is a funny word. Yes, I would guess
that the next big problem in the economy will emanate from
the credit markets. But will that start the next recession? Not
necessarily. The problem might start because of a trade war or
for some other reason. One of my favorite oxymorons is that
“we’re not expecting any surprises.” But of course it’s
surprises that have the power to knock the market for a loop;
after all, very few people saw the subprime crisis coming.
I would guess that the next big problem
in the economy will emanate from the credit
markets. But will that start the next
recession? Not necessarily.”
When we learned about the Civil War, we learned about Fort
Sumter being the powder keg. Today, leverage in the system
seems to me like the area of greatest exposure, but I can’t be
sure what the powder keg will be. I’m not cavalier enough to
pretend that I know where the trouble will emerge.
Allison Nathan: The GFC was a key buying opportunity for
you. Would the limited firepower of monetary policy give
you pause before buying risky assets during the next major
downturn?
Howard Marks: It will matter if we have a severe recession. In
2007, I held five-year Treasuries that paid six-plus percent.
Today, the five-year pays two-plus percent. So by definition, the
Fed has less firepower with which to respond to a recession.
That’s bad. But the scenario that you’re describing would
otherwise probably be a good time to invest: pessimism up,
prices down, people pulling in their horns. Weighing those pros
and cons is what makes this a tough business, and that’s why
nobody gets it right all the time.
Allison Nathan: Considering the Q4 sell-off and the recent
rally, how would you rate investor optimism today? Do
expectations look more reasonable to you?
Howard Marks: I see the Q4 price action as a dash of cold
water that cooled off some enthusiasm. Credit spreads
widened and it was hard to raise money. These were positive
signs of prudence. That said, those losses have been recovered
to a large degree. So I would say that the market is chastened
but back to being somewhat optimistic.
I still see some optimism in the market
today. So I would want to be in stable, higher-
quality, and defensive assets more so than in
aggressive, optimism-oriented assets.”
Allison Nathan: So how should investors be positioned
today?
Howard Marks: To me, the key question is whether this a time
for aggressiveness or a time for caution. I believe it’s a time for
caution. Warren Buffett said it best: “The less prudence with
which others conduct their affairs, the greater the prudence
with which we should conduct our own affairs.” If investors are
scared, as they were in the fourth quarter of 2008 or early
2009, I believe you should be aggressive. But if investors look
like flaming optimists, then watch out. As I said, I still see
some optimism in the market today. So I would want to be in
stable, higher-quality and defensive assets more so than in
aggressive, optimism-oriented assets.
Of course, it's not all or none, buy or sell. For example, slower
growth would normally mean holding more US than non-US
assets, because the US is the more dependable economy. But
US securities are also the most expensive. Normally, caution
would call for holding more bonds than stocks. But long-term
fixed income instruments would suffer the most if rates rise.
And at least in the US, bonds are more expensive than stocks.
So the trouble is, things aren’t black and white. But overall, I
see absolutely zero reason to express the aggressiveness that
was appropriate ten years ago. The easy money has been
made for this cycle, and today's conditions call for a more
cautious portfolio.